Gender Disparity – Warren Farrell

Thriving Launch by Kamala Chambers and Luis Congdon Gender Disparity - Warren Farrell
00:00:00 00:00:00

gender disparity

Summary-icon

SUMMARY


The pay gap is not about gender disparity. It’s a part of our history, and it’s the result of the choices we made for our survival.

On this episode, we’re talking with Warren Farrell who has been chosen as one of the world’s top 100 Thought Leaders by The Financial Times. He talks about the pay gap and explains how it isn’t between men and women, but between mothers and fathers.

According to him, that is changing now that there is more flexibility for men and women to take on the traditional roles of the opposite sex. This leads to better performance on the job, and it also benefits their children.

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KEY TAKEAWAYS


arrow-iconToday, women who had never been married and never had children earn 117% more than men who have never had children and never been married.

arrow-iconThe pay gap isn’t between men and women. It’s between moms and dads.

arrow-iconOnce the children arrive, the women spend fewer hours at work to have more time with their children.

arrow-iconWe now have the luxury of both sexes being able to participate in the traditional roles of the opposite sex.

arrow-iconWhen men participate in the roles women traditionally played, children do better.

arrow-iconWhen women participate in the roles that are traditional for men, women do outstanding work.

arrow-iconThe pay gap is greater for people who want to do fulfilling work.

arrow-iconThe more fulfilling a job is, the more likely it is to pay less money.

arrow-iconThe road to high pay is a toll road.

Summary-icon

TRANSCRIPTION: GENDER DISPARITY – WARREN FARRELL


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Luis Congdon

Does gender disparity bother you? Does it worry you that men and women make different amounts of money and that men are making more money than women? Or are you interested in knowing how untraditional relationships help entrepreneurs and couples thrive?

If that’s something that interests you, stay tuned because, on this episode, we’ll be discussing about gender disparity.

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Kamala Chambers

Today, we’re here with Dr. Warren Farrell.

He’s appeared on more than a thousand TV and radio shows and has been chosen by The Financial Times as one of the world’s top 100 Thought Leaders. His books are published in over 50 countries, and in 17 languages.

We’re thrilled to have him here to talk about gender disparity.

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Luis Congdon

All right, Thriving launchers, we are here with Warren, and without further ado, Warren, are you ready to launch?

Warren Farrell

We’ll know better after we finish our launching.

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Luis Congdon

Warren, you’ve done a lot of research on gender disparity in men and women, the myth of the male power, and why men earn more money than women. You’ve taken quite an interest in gender studies, the gender gaps, and what’s happening.

I’m curious. Why is gender disparity an interest of yours?  And why is this important for us to understand in today’s age?

Warren Farrell

The interest was made out of the surfacing of the women’s movement in the late 60’s. I was teaching at Rutgers. I started having students in the class, roleplayed the women and leaders involved, played people that were protesting then, calling them lesbians and dikes, and bra burners and things like that. Fortunately, “lesbian” is a much more positive word now than it was in the late 60’s.

Women’s Movement Causing An Interest In Gender Disparity

Warren Farrell

And so, I started to explain the perspectives of the women’s movement. Before, I knew that I was persuaded by my classes to change my doctoral dissertation topic to one that dealt with these issues on gender disparity. I did that, and then got elected to the board of the National Organization for Women in New York City, and started speaking all around the world of those issues.

Then, in the 70’s, I began to see a lot of divorces occur, and a lot of children left without their dads as a result of the divorces. The National Organization for Women now took a stand saying that if their mother wanted the children to be with them, they should have the right to say that. I said, “That’s not equality. This is completely opposed to what you believe in.” Also, without asking the more important question which “Is this best for the children?”

Effect Of Gender Disparity On Children

Warren Farrell

It turns out, what is best for the children is about an equal amount of time with mother and father after the divorce, but we didn’t have a super amount of research to support that at that point.

The research we did have was leading in that direction, and then, that led me to write a book called Father and Child Reunion, which was the result of the number of years of research that led me to be much more certain about something. It is that children after divorce do a lot better with approximately, an equal amount of time with mothers and fathers that don’t love each other, and mothers and fathers that they’re relatively close to each other, and mothers and fathers that do couples’ communication inconsistently after divorce.

Movement Against Gender Disparity Is Both Beneficial To Everyone

Warren Farrell

The women’s movement, start to feel educated and make a move toward that women’s movement, kept supporting women while having the right to be their primary parent.

That led to my reminisce to make a distinction between the portions of the women’s movement that are extremely beneficial to women and to people in general versus the parts of the women’s movement that had stands that were not benefiting our children. And both men and women as if we were allies as opposed to as if we were competing.

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Kamala Chambers

Yeah. That’s such a powerful way to get started.

One thing I want to hear from you is about the wage gap between men and women, and how that affects entrepreneurs, employees, and if there’s anything, we can do about it.

Gender Disparity – Men Earning More Than Women Doing The Same Work

Warren Farrell

I remember I was reading the men’s section of the women’s strive for equality. I was picking myself if men earn the dollar for each 79 cents that women make doing the same work or 59 cents.

I could start a firm with just women, and I would be producing products for 59 cents that other people will be selling for a dollar. And I could internationally build up a whole series of firms that were all female run, controlled, and etcetera then benefits the women’s movement from an office that was made.

I started picking that through, and said to myself, “Maybe there’s a deeper reason why there is this gap,” just that before I started taking off on this huge entrepreneurial adventure.

Gender Disparity On Women Who Never Had Children And Never Been Married

Warren Farrell

As I started looking more closely, I’ve started seeing that women who never had children and never been married in the 70’s earned more than men who had never had children and never been married.

Today, women who had never been married and never had children earn 117% more than men who have never had children and never been married. I said, “All right. There’s something about children and marriages, especially children that seem to be crucial and important.”

That led me to discover this.

Effects Of Gender Disparity On Pay Gap

Warren Farrell Gender Disparity Thriving Launch Podcast

Warren Farrell

When men and women got married, once the children arrive, the women, as a rule, tended to divide their labor between being involved and concerned with their children and their work. That led to putting fewer hours into work.

Women and men who have children and are married where the children are under five, 40% of them do not work outside their home. 40% work full-time outside the home and 20% work part-time.

Gender Disparity On Women And Why They Cut Back Their Work

Warren Farrell

Among the women who worked full-time, most of them cut back their work considerably to have more time with their children. They tend to give up long commutes and be closer to home and divide a lot of their working day and their weekends to be concerned with their children.

I started seeing women who didn’t do that and did very well. Some women had fathers who were with the children full time. Those women, they were moved more quickly in the workplace and eaten their male counterparts.

I started saying to myself here that there’s a lot more here to the pay gap than meets the eye and started looking more and more carefully.

25 Work Life Decisions That Can Help Stop Gender Disparity

Warren Farrell

Eventually, in the research why men earn more, I discovered that there were 25 distinct work-life choices that men and women make, and if they make the same decisions, women earn slightly more for the same work.

I identified those 25 areas, did the measurables to the best I can because there are overlaps. If a specific woman wants to earn more, there’s a formula for what she can do to do that.

Formula To Stop Gender Disparity

Warren Farrell

One of those things, for example, is what they call the have it all moment, wanting to have a compelling career or be a great entrepreneur, but also having a husband, a good marriage, and children that are raised well. There’s a way to do that.

The way to do that is if you’re inclined in that direction, and you’re married and have children, be full time involved in the workplace but marry the type of man who’s interested in being home full-time with the children so that the children are raised effectively by a man.

If you have that demographic, those children do exceptionally well, and the women in that modality get promoted more quickly and earn more than their male counterparts.

That’s one option to stop gender disparity, and of course, not all women want that.

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Luis Congdon

That’s fascinating to hear you talk about that based on your research. A lot of times, we hear stories about something, and it’s slanted without the proper depth to give us some of the insights or slanted with some bias.

Gender Disparity – Women Feeling Not Being Acknowledged

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Luis Congdon

If I’m a woman, I’d say that it’s all good and dandy to hear you talk about how there is this gap divide around wages. And because men have typically not been the ones that give more to the home, and women are giving more to the home, and so their pay gets cut down. But as a female, I still don’t feel acknowledged.

Hearing you say that, I’m thinking about a woman, and I’m thinking “That still doesn’t feel right to me because the story I’ve heard is the one I feel when I go to work. I see men who are in higher positions. The United States has never had an American president that’s a woman. Many countries have not had officials that are women leading. There are many companies where there might be a lot of women working at the company, but the head, the owners, and the boards of the company, the owners of the company are mainly male dominated.”

Gender Disparity – Women Feeling Some Injustice

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Luis Congdon

I hear you saying that and I still feel a sense that if I were a woman, I would feel some sense of injustice.

Warren Farrell

Yes.

I think into empathizing instead of reinforcing, which you say.

I remember when I was in third grade, and I looked in the history books and saw that every president was a male. Like, “Okay. Check that box.” That was interesting becoming the president of The United States at that point, and that “Oh, white male. Check that box.”

Factors Causing Gender Disparity

Warren Farrell

There is an inspiration or conversely for a woman, and lack of inspiration who are feeling of like, “The system was set-up against me.” if that is the woman’s desire to be a president of The United States. That can be an inhibiting factor by not having role models in upper-level position.

I think that is something inherently is a value by itself of having had Hillary Clinton be president, is that many women can say, “Okay. It is viable to do that.”

I think the same thing happens to men when in a different type of way. A man thinks of “I’m great with children, and it would be wonderful if I could be a full-time dad. If I would meet an attractive woman at a party and tell her my desire is to be a full-time dad, and she didn’t disappear before the next drink, and the person that replaced her was a reporter being interested in engineering me, but no woman is interested in dating me.”

Challenges On Being Against Gender Disparity

Warren Farrell

Both sexes, when we look at people who are deviants from roles, find challenges in that deviation from roles.

I would ask that woman to use something different than using the word “injustice.” It’s because you could say it’s an injustice for a man not to get as much support to be a full-time dad, and you could say it’s an injustice for a woman who does not have as many role models to be in traditional positions of power.

Gender Disparity During The Past

Warren Farrell

Or you can understand that historically speaking, the world was not controlled by a patriarchy that made rules to benefit men at the expense of women, but rather the world was dominated by the need to survive.

The way most countries figured out the need to survive historically will say, “We survived best by having as many children as possible.” And women were more likely to be the ones being pregnant, and having the children.

Doing Things To Survive Resulted In Gender Disparity

Warren Farrell

The men would go out, and the women would select for providers and protectors, which very clearly, discriminated against men who were not prone to providing and protecting. And the men are chosen for women who are young and beautiful. These were two things we did to survive together.

But now, in developed countries, we don’t need to be so focused on survival, and technology had allowed women to do a lot of things that they’re easily able to do when they were farming and doing construction work, welding, and so on.

Flexibility To Participate In Traditional Roles Of The Other Sex To Stop Gender Disparity

Warren Farrell

There’s a lot more flexibility now, and we have a luxury of having both sexes be able to not only participate in traditional roles of the other sex but also, when men participate in the roles women traditionally play, children do better than any other way. And conversely, when women participate in the roles that are traditional for men, women do an outstanding way. And so, the world is not about justice or injustice.

Warren Farrell Gender Disparity Thriving Launch Podcast

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Luis Congdon

What you’re saying makes me think about is proof that Kamala should be working more than me, and I should spend more time playing with my dog, taking care of the house.

Warren Farrell

The dog playing is a little bit off.

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Kamala Chambers

Yeah. You’re taking care of what?

What would I love to hear from you Warren is what we can do. What can we do as a society to stop gender disparity?

In all your research you found, what do you think are the top one to three things we can all do as individuals to shift the pattern on gender disparity?

Shifting The Pattern On Gender Disparity

Warren Farrell

Take a different attitude toward the pay gap in this area.

The pay gap is greater for people who want to do fulfilling work.

Warren Farrell Gender Disparity Thriving Launch Podcast

Gender Disparity On Doing Fulfilling Jobs

Warren Farrell

The reason for that is a large number of people want to be writers or actors or artists, and so we hear terms like “starving artists.”  Most actors in Los Angeles have the same name. It’s “waiter.”

My father warned me when I wanted to be a writer. He said, “That’s ridiculous. You can’t make a living as an author.”

If you want to do something that’s fulfilling, you probably will get paid less unless you work so hard not so become at the top of the highly competitive type group of people.

Tradeoffs When Trying To Reduce Gender Disparity

Warren Farrell

There are the opportunities out there for a woman who wants to earn as much or more as men, but each of those choices you will make is a tradeoff.

Warren Farrell Gender Disparity Thriving Launch Podcast

Stop Gender Disparity And Find Opportunities To Be Paid Higher

Warren Farrell

You get higher pay as a rule by pleasing a boss, by moving to where a company needs you even when you’re not; it’s in your best interest to do so as a family. And when you are more flexible to someone else’s needs, the boss of particular companies, you will tend to get paid more conversely, if you’re willing to take hazards job, but you don’t have much education.

You want to work as a garbage collector and get up at three in the morning in the cold, the rain, and snow. That person could have probably made more than a woman or man with an art history degree, who has a bachelor’s degree even though they have no education because we tend to need our garbage collector more than we need a new piece of art.

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Luis Congdon

This has been a great talk here with Warren about gender disparity. We’ve been talking about the differences between men and women and the reasons why men and women make different amounts of money.

The real breakthrough for me here, Thriving Launchers, has been that gender disparity not so much about a pay gap. It’s been a tradition and a history that we’ve taken as a society, as men and women and the decisions we’ve made in regards to our survival.

Stopping Gender Disparity And Taking Different Roles Is A Great Win

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Luis Congdon

An exciting breakthrough or insight Warren offered us today is when men and women take non-traditional roles in their relationship, it can benefit the couple financially, monetarily, abundance wise immensely. If you’re one of these couples that have a different layout of your relationship, don’t think that makes you weird or odd or soft because it could potentially be a great win.

I hope you guys got some value out of this interview about gender disparity. It’s been fantastic to have Warren here on the show.

All right, Thriving Launchers, keep thriving you all.

Thriving Launch by Kamala Chambers and Luis Congdon Gender Disparity - Warren Farrell
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